In this episode, Jared Moore joins David Sons and Jared Cornutt for a conversation about the Southern Baptist Convention and the SBC Presidential election. This is the second of six interviews with SBC Presidential candidates.
The Baptist Review exists for Southern Baptists to engage in good faith discussion about the issues, current events, and questions that matter in our Convention.
You can subscribe to The Baptist Review podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and by clicking the links below:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Youtube
The North American Mission Board
Listen to the Reconstructing Faith podcast from Trevin Wax and the North American Mission Board.
Listen on Apple Podcasts
Listen on Spotify
Lifeline Children's Services
Click here to learn more about adoption services from Lifeline Children's Services.
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Click here to learn more about Southeastern's degree programs and how they can equip you for ministry and mission
_____________________________
Read a Transcript of this Episode below:
This transcript was provided by Rev.com, and has not been closely revised. Please refer to the recording for clarity on any confusing transcriptions.
David Sons (00:02):
Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Baptist Review podcast. I'm your host, David Sons, and this is one of our interviews with SBC presidential candidates that we're going to be doing all of this month. And today we are excited to welcome Dr. Jared Moore. Jared is the pastor at Homestead's Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee and will be nominated for the role of president this year in Indianapolis by another SBC Pastor Dusty Deevers. And so I'm joined in our interview today by Jared Cornutt, so I'll try to keep my Jared's straight, but both of you guys, thankful that you're here, Jared Moore, we're really thankful that you'd take the time to spend with us today at the Baptist Review.
Jared Moore (00:45):
Yeah, I appreciate you fellas having me on. And let me talk about the SBC.
David Sons (00:50):
Well, we're certainly excited to do it and one of the things Jared, I think is good is for some of our listeners for Southern Baptist to get to know you as a person. I think sometimes in these presidential run up to the presidential election, we can just see guys as their positions on certain things. But I'd love to just begin by asking you to share a little bit about your personal testimony, maybe call to ministry and a little bit about the church that you serve at now.
Jared Moore (01:23):
Sure. I was raised in the Church of God of Prophecy. My mom and her siblings started a Church of God of Prophecy in Sparta, Tennessee, and I attended there until I was about 15 years of age. Mom and dad, they permitted me to attend another church because it was about, our church was basically family church, and that was the time when groups were coming into swing and mom and dad were just concerned with me having godly friends of my own age. And so I started attending Southern Baptist Church when I was 15 with a buddy, got saved when I was 17 and just had a clearer understanding of the gospel. It's like a switch went off and went from kind of working my way to heaven to trusting in Christ alone for salvation. And when I was 18, believed that Lord may be calling me to the ministry.
Jared Moore (02:28):
So came forward and the church encouraged me in that endeavor, later ordained me to the gospel ministry and the people who made the biggest difference in my life were just your everyday Southern Baptist and they loved me. Even the Church of God, of prophecy I was at, they loved me. I have fond memories of the people you don't know, but Ms. Juanita Neighbors, Alma Johnson, ladies who taught me in Sunday school when I was a kid and JR Neighbors who was a pastor of my church and loved me and cared for me and Aaron and Beverly Barlow at the Gum Springs Baptist Church in Walling, Tennessee.
These folks just loved me and taught me the word and taught me to love missions, to be concerned about the souls of others and their wellbeing. Benevolence discipleship basically to stick by the word. Even my pastor, whose ministry I was saved under, Tony Wilson who is in Red Bank, Tennessee, I think it's Oak something, Baptist Church there in Red Bank. But anyway, all these folks encouraged me in ministry and there were about seven or eight guys out of Gum Springs Baptist Church that went into the ministry. And Jeff Wright is a pastor in Cookville. Michael Dickerson is an associate pastor in Baxter, Tennessee.
And all these guys kind of came out of that church, came out of that church. Matt Schlager took over for Phil Newton in Memphis and Gary Felton pastors in Pennsylvania. And these were guys I grew up with and that were impacted by that church. I had a guy ask me the other day, how do you replicate that? I'm like, man, you can't. They weren't trying to produce pastors, they were just turning the page and teaching the text and loving the people. And that's what produces, God takes the word Holy Spirit takes the word and applies it to sinners hearts, raises 'em from the dead. And as you read the word and believe it, God calls out particular leaders to be used by him. And it really boiled down to the reason why I'm willing to be nominated for SBC President is in part a big part because I love the Southern Baptist Convention. I love SBC churches.
Jared Moore (05:11):
My home church handed me a Bible that I could believe and trust and told me to go preach it. And seminary, I mean I served in ministry since I was 19 years of age in Southern Baptist. So I that's 24 years now, 24 years in May, this coming May. And I kept going to school because I was going to be studying the Bible to preach. And so I thought, well, might as well get a degree while I'm doing it. So I finished my PhD at Southern Seminary in 2019 on the doctrine of Concupiscence, which is just the lust of the flesh evil desire and seems pertinent today because folks don't believe that evil desire is sin. They base sin on the will rather than on the word of God. The Baptist Faith and Message 2000 says that Adam brought sin into the human race. It doesn't say mere inclination or something neutral or brought sin into the human race. So sin from its beginning in our hearts is morally culpable. That's why we got to run to Jesus. And so anyway, long story short, I love the love of the SBC and I think our best days can be ahead of us, but it's going to be in agreement with God's word. It's not going to be by leaving our confession behind or leaving the word of God behind or taking parts of the word of God that we like and discarding the other parts. If we're going to flourish as a group of voluntary, voluntary churches united together, it's going to be in lockstep with the word of God, not in opposition to it. And so I want to hand to my kids and grandkids and all the grandkids in the SBC, what I got to enjoy growing up, which was people who taught me the word and love me.
Jared Cornutt (07:10):
Jared, you are no newcomer when it comes to elections. I believe you've been elected second vice president before the very first convention I went to in 2014 in Baltimore. You ran for SBC President Ronnie Floyd won that year. You spoke to it just there for a second, but flesh it out a little bit more for us. Why are you allowing yourself to be nominated again to be SBC President?
Jared Moore (07:35):
Yeah, so that was about a decade ago. Some buddies approached me involved in Credo Alliance, which is just a group of Baptist A who are seeking to make doctrinal statements, confessional statements on things like critical race theory. How do Christians think about that? How do Christians think about biblical patriarchy or what some call complementarianism and what is the role of Christians in politics, things like that. Those guys approached me about being nominated for SBC President and because of these issues that we're dealing with. So issues of dealing with female pastors, the Law amendment, I'm a hundred percent in favor of the Law amendment. I think we should pass it. I'm a hundred percent in favor of financial transparency. I think it will do the cooperative program good and it'll be good for our entities, good for our trustees, good for Southern Baptist. I'm also in favor of being biblical and clear on issues like abortion.
Jared Moore (08:46):
I'm an abolitionist, so I believe in abolishing abortion. I believe that the unborn should have the same rights as you or I, and that needs to be emphasized with whoever's elected SBC President and LGBT issues. It is the idol of the day and we need to be clear that from the beginning of LGBT desires in one's heart, it is morally culpable sin and that Christ can transform any sinner. You are not the sum of your evil inclinations. The Lord can change those. We see numerous examples in scripture of God literally changing folks and it has been taught in SBC pulpits that God can't change folks or that God raises the dead, but you're still gay after you get saved. And that's just not what the Bible teaches. That's not confessionally what church history has taught. And so those are important issues. We've had SBC presidents argue contrary to that and I intend to submit to the scriptures and believe them. You've got too many pastors asking people, taking a poll and saying, how do you feel? And then they make theological statements based on how a group of people feel instead of turning the page, preaching the text and believing what it says. I intend to turn the page and preach the text.
David Sons (10:15):
Jared, you already kind of started moving in the direction that I think we want to take this interview in, which is we've gotten to know a little bit about you personally about your story, the church you've served, and I do want to ask a little bit about positions on particular issues that will be important both in the annual meeting at Indianapolis this year and to the future of the Southern Baptist Convention. And one of those is abuse reform and the steps that we have taken and the steps that we still need to take. You've gone on record saying that you would not characterize sexual abuse in the SBC as a crisis. You've also said that you would take issue with the characterization of abuse as systemic within the convention. Would you maybe elaborate on why you wouldn't qualify sexual abuse within the convention as a systemic problem or even as a crisis?
Jared Moore (11:07):
So systemic meaning that it's perpetuated within and by the system, which is how systemic is used. When people talk about systemic racism, for example, they say that the system is the source and perpetuates racism. In order to remove the racism, you have to destroy the system. It's the same way. If you say that there is systemic abuse in the SBC, then you have to destroy the system. You have to change the system. And so if there is systemic abuse in the SBC, there has been nothing done, nothing to change the system because the abuse is happening in particular churches and exactly how have you changed the systems that are going on within those churches. You haven't changed any of it, nor can you at the most the SBC can. I mean if it's systemic, you have to kick out those churches. Now how does that protect the children in those churches? That's something we saw at, what was it the last convention when we voted out a church over they hired a or they did not get rid of a sexual abuser, I believe is what it was. And so now that we have kicked that church out, what little influence we had over that church, we now have none.
Jared Moore (12:40):
And so what I'm saying is, is we've got to use the correct language and diagnose the problem correctly. Because if you say systemic, it means if you are within the Southern Baptist system that you have participated in abuse in some form. And I'm saying that that is not the case. And look, everyone agrees that abuse is heinous, evil, wicked. All my nostalgia from growing up in the SBC and even in my home church, I cannot imagine the horror if I associated abuse with my upbringing in the local church, how that would affect me. It is such a heinous evil sin. It's even worse for a professed Christian to do it. For a church who claims to be under Lordship of Christ to participate in it is an even more heinous sin for a Christian or a church to be involved in it than it is for an unbeliever here, Jared. It's evil, It's wicked. I agree with that. What was the second part of your question, Jared?
Jared Cornutt (13:50):
So Jared, it may not be systemic in the way that you're describing it, but the question is, does the system as the way it currently operates, does it lend itself to allowing predators to move the church to different churches without discovery? Because we have examples I know you would agree with, of abusers abusing children and teenagers in multiple churches. Some have come across multiple states over periods of decades and it hasn't been reported properly, hasn't been handled properly. And the question becomes does the convention bear any responsibility to help churches increase their level of communication with each other about potential abusers who might move church to church state to state over long periods of time?
Jared Moore (14:36):
Is there a question in there?
David Sons (14:39):
Yeah, I think the question that he asked was it may not be systemic in the way that I think you're describing it. You would say that, hey, if it's systemic, then the system is culpable and the system must be torn down to root out the problem. That's kind of I think the issue you would take with calling it systemic. And so I think we would agree that if we could agree on that kind of terminology. But I think the question that Jared's asking is, hey, even if it's not baked into the system of the SBC and the principle of local church autonomy, we have seen where abusers have used the system to move from church to church or state to state where it hasn't been handled appropriately by certain churches. And do you think that the convention bears any responsibility to help those churches increase their level of communication with each other about these predators that may be moving from church to church or state to state? Does the convention bear any responsibility to help churches do that? I think is the question that Jared was asking.
Jared Moore (15:45):
Does the convention bear responsibility to help churches be aware of potential abusers or to recognize abusers? I think that the way what the SBC needs to be involved in, what I think is positive is in helping churches to recognize potential abusers and also, which would include what you're talking about now when you start talking about the SBC, you're only talking about the executive committee. I mean you're not talking, are you saying my church has a responsibility to let all churches to, you know what I'm saying? When you talk about the SBC, you're talking about the Southern Baptist Convention, which is a voluntary association of churches. So when you speak of the SBC, it sounds like you're saying the executive committee, does the executive committee bear responsibility to help churches or this other entity that is being formed or the task force or the SBC president?
Jared Moore (16:52):
To answer your question, I think the answer is out of loving God and loving our neighbor, we need to help churches to be able to recognize potential abusers and also if churches will do their due diligence before they hire someone or bring someone on staff or with volunteers in calling and talking with folks that will do the best possible. I mean the best possible remedy or preventing children from being harmed is at the local church level. And so I think that the best thing we can do is to offer training and encouragement. And when you talk about, Jared mentioned helping churches communicate with one another, I don't know what you mean tangibly by that. What do you mean by helping? How is someone in Nashville going to hear about a guy in Texas that may be, how does that even work Now, what would be best is to train the church in Texas to do their due diligence. So they don't hire that guy because they've called the previous church and they've talked with them. Now I understand that, but when you start talking about there's a middleman, that's what I'm concerned with. I don't think it's feasible to have a middleman to call in between when they should just directly call the church, figure out who you're hiring before you hire 'em.
David Sons (18:34):
So Jared as president if you were president. So I would say to go back to your point about prevention training resources, I think that we have done some of that. I know that that was part of the recommendations from the sexual abuse task force, that was a part of what the abuse reform implementation task force has rolled out with their ministry, with their toolbox or toolkit. You talk about the importance of teaching churches to recognize, so as president of the convention, are those the type of things that you're looking at to say, Hey, these are the type of things that we could turn out either from the executive committee or from a task force that is put together by the messengers as president that could help churches do the kind of things that you're talking about? Is that what you mean when you say we have to teach churches to recognize abusers with those kind of materials or those kind of resources?
Jared Moore (19:27):
Yes. You partner with the state conventions who partner with the local associations and the SBC would be responsible for those churches that have bypassed the state conventions and the associations. And so you reach out directly to those folks. I mean, you could do this on a volunteer basis if you wanted to get pastors. I mean, how many local pastors do we have in the SBC who would maybe take 10 minutes a week and try to encourage someone, Hey, have you checked out this website that has this curriculum for training churches to where you have every single local church in the SBC is aware of the training and is encouraged to utilize it so that they can potentially help their churches. But here's the thing, we have to be careful in talking about what is the best thing. There's been a lot of empty rhetoric, there's been a lot of accusations made against folks.
Jared Moore (20:25):
If you don't agree with this exact way that this committee has presented something or if you don't agree even how it's framed, you disagree with abuse reform. No, I don't. I'm just saying that I grew up in SBC my whole adult life from age 15 forward and I've never been hurt. I've been threatened. I've never even been concerned about someone harming me or none of my buddies either. Now here's the thing, I realize that's anecdotal and there are people who have been harmed, but whenever you start saying that you're going to teach these churches where no abuse has taken place that you're going to come in and help them to prevent abuse, well, they're already preventing abuse evidently. And that's the thing. Folks are coming along and saying, now we're going to end abuse. Well, there are churches who never started abuse in the SBC and you're going to go to them and say, no, you got to do it this way whenever they've had zero, zero people harmed in their churches.
Jared Moore (21:34):
I think that's a very presumptuous thing to assume. It's a very presumptuous thing to say. And so to make accusations against churches like that, because they may not utilize some of the things that the SBC is offering, it doesn't mean that they are negative. They actually may because they've never had an account of abuse and some of these other churches have, they may actually be doing a better job than some of these other churches who are actually utilizing the materials. And so we just have to be very careful in how we frame this. But what I'm in favor of and what I will encourage is to walk alongside churches and to help them prepare to where they can recognize potential abusers as well as I do that. There are examples in the SBC, they have taken place where a father has harmed a daughter and it did not take place ever at the local church. And so we need to even train churches to where they may potentially recognize that form of abuse as well.
David Sons (22:33):
And I think that there are those type of things that are happening and that's where I want to move on to a different topic here. But I think there are those kinds of things that are happening. I think in my own personal church we do, we train our volunteers on how to look for evidence of abuse and neglect specifically in minors. And I think all churches should be encouraged about best practices on how to do that. And I would. And so what best practices, best practices are, how do you best, I mean there are specific ways that you would look for and train on what to look for in abuse and neglect. And so I think that that may be where the debate is here, and I think it's probably a longer conversation than what we have time for if we want to move on to other issues.
David Sons (23:23):
But I think that I understand your position and want to make sure that your position is clearly stated here as folks make those decisions going to Indianapolis. So let's move on. One of the other positions that you talked about just a moment ago is the Law amendment. And this summer just as kind of context background, not so much for you or us, but for those listening, one of the primary issues will be the adoption or the rejection of the Law amendment. It passed. The New Orleans will face a second vote of ratification in Indianapolis. Of the five candidates currently, currently five candidates, it could be more by the time this airs, of the five candidates, two of you are opposed to two, are opposed to the Law amendment and three are in favor. As you mentioned already in this podcast, you've been a vocal proponent of the Law amendment from its conception two years ago and will be voting in favor of its passage in Indianapolis. However, the vote will occur before the next president begins its term. And so if the amendment fails and you are elected president, how would you then seek to lead the convention towards unity around a path forward?
Jared Moore (24:31):
Well, from what I understand, the other candidates, what they have said, I know I can't speak for Frank, but Keahbone shared that it's not that he was opposed to the Law amendment, it's that he wanted to wait before implementing the Law amendment. He says he agrees with the content of the Law amendment. He does not agree with adding it to the constitution. So returning to your question, the goal would be unity around the confession. And to me that's the goal of the Law amendment is unity around the confession. What is the consensus of the SBC concerning doctrine? And it is male pastors. That is the consensus. That's what I mean. We voted in a confession. Southern Baptist messengers voted in a confession. And in the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and the Law amendment just repeats that. I see no issue with adding wording from our confession that we are supposed to agree with adding that wording. It's just Bible. Adding biblical language to the Constitution I think is a good thing.
Jared Cornutt (25:50):
Jared, one of the conversations that's kind of happening right now around the Law amendment, but by both its proponents and its critics is addressing nomenclature issues in churches who use the term pastor for a woman who has that title, but she's not functioning as an elder or an overseer in a church. So if the Law amendment passed, should churches address using the term pastor for women in non elder pastor overseer roles or should it apply to any church that has a female on staff with a title pastor? What do you think about that?
Jared Moore (26:30):
My concern is using the term, you should not use the term pastor because that's what the Law amendment says. It's what the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 says as well. Pastor of any kind is the language. And so any church that has a pastor of any kind that is a female would need to change that terminology. Growing up in the SBC, women are involved in all kinds of ministries in the SBC. They do so much work. They're essential, they're important, their work is important, no less important than any man's, but there is a difference between men and women. And God has given us distinct and different roles in the home and in the church, and we need not go against that because someone has decided to use a term that is contrary to scripture. So using a biblical term like pastor or to say, well, she's not functioning as a pastor, makes no sense to me, makes no sense according to the confession, makes no sense according to the Bible.
Jared Moore (27:50):
And so I just must respectfully disagree with my brothers and sisters who decide to do that. Now that won't be the SBC president's decision, it will be the committee's decision on those matters. But no, I would encourage those churches. And the goal is to try to persuade all we can do with local churches because we are not denomination, we are a voluntary association of churches. And so the SBC has no power over what a local church can do or say or anything like that. At most, we can accept their cooperation or reject it, and I would encourage those churches and try to persuade them to use a different term.
David Sons (28:38):
So Jared, I actually want to just jump on that with you. I agree with that. I believe that persuading those church, trying to persuade, trying to say what's one of the things we do here, we don't. The title pastor at the church that I serve at is reserved for elders, is reserved for men, is qualified by scripture here at the church. We have women serving on our staff and serving in multiple roles on our staff, but we reserve the term pastor for those who are qualified by scripture and have been affirmed by the congregation. So I want to go back to something you said just a minute ago about encouraging those churches to change titles. I would agree with you a hundred percent on that. And so for you, would it be sufficient for a church to simply change the titles of a female children's pastor or a connections pastor or worship pastor to director or minister without addressing the function of that role and then still remain in friendly cooperation with the convention?
David Sons (29:40):
Because I think that's where some of the tension is. If a church just says, okay, well we'll just change the terminology, but not actually the function of that person, that female on staff, is that sufficient? And if it's not sufficient to just change the title without addressing the function, who or how would we determine how that person is functioning on staff and whether that church can remain in friendly cooperation And as president, I think if you were to give counsel to the credentials committee, if a church is reported and they're told that, Hey, there's a female on staff that doesn't have the title pastor, but she's functioning in the same elements as one, what should we do? So is it sufficient to just change title without changing function? And if we have to address function, who or how do we investigate or determine whether that needs to be done?
Jared Moore (30:36):
So based on the Law amendment as written, it is just the title. Now, me biblically, I believe that it's the function as well, but that is not what the Law amendment addresses, if that makes sense.
David Sons (30:50):
No, it does. That's good.
Jared Moore (30:51):
So the committee would have to go with what the vote of the convention has been because the committee requested clarification for what means friendly cooperation. The Law amendment answers that question and adds it to the Constitution. So now they know what criteria concerning what is a pastor. And I think because it says affirms, appoints as employees, only men is any kind of pastor or elder. So pastor and elder is synonymous and so as qualified by scripture. And so I think that it affirms the pastor or elder as far as the term using the term, but it says as qualified by scripture.
Jared Moore (31:49):
And so I mean you could argue that it is dealing with function as well. Again, personally, I'm a Baptist Faith and Message 2000 guy, so I believe that it includes function. Women should not be preaching from the pulpit. There should not be any question in your local church whether or not a woman is a pastor. There just shouldn't be. Biblically, it's similar. It's a crude example, but similar to a man who has long hair. If people start thinking that you're a woman, you might need to cut your hair. I'm not saying that it's sin to for a man to have long hair, but you have to look like a man, right? As long as you look like a man, but look at me. So you're bald. I mean that's not really a fair. That's exactly right. I know. And I love y'all's beards. I can't even grow a beard, man. I don't even have eyebrows. But anyways, there should not be any question that a woman in a Southern Baptist church may a pastor or may be an elder because it's just distinct. There's differences. We celebrate the roles of both men and women, but we do not blur those roles even in function.
Jared Cornutt (33:10):
I just want to ask one follow-up question. Do you believe we have a greater issue of title or function in our convention when it comes to women pastors,
Jared Moore (33:21):
Greater issue of title or function?
Jared Cornutt (33:25):
Do you think there are more women?
Jared Moore (33:26):
I think title. I think there are very few women who are functioning as the senior pastor in the SBC. Now, I know there are, because I've looked at church websites, I know that there are churches that have female solo pastors in the SBC. So, but for the most part, like a lot of these bigger churches where women are given the title of pastor, the women are not elders, they're not ordained. They have not been set apart by the local church for that capacity. And so I think it's more of a title issue in the SBC, but I may be wrong. There might be more evidence come to bear. We'll see what happens. I think the Law amendment is going to pass just because I think I want to say we got to have a 66% vote. It's two-thirds. It was almost 90% and that was when Rick Warren was there.
David Sons (34:32):
I think the 90% was for the non-cooperation of Saddleback. I don't think the Law amendment was at 90% ballot ballot ballot. It was a raised hand vote. So from the stage, the president declared that it was more than two thirds, but I don't know that there's an actual percentage on that.
[Break for sponsors]
David Sons (36:30):
Jared, one of the other things that you talked about just a moment ago, and you've publicly stated your support for a couple of motions that are before the executive committee right now regarding financial disclosures of our entities. And just for background, the motions are asking for information that mirrors or approximates the level of disclosure you would find in an IRS Form nine 90, which is the standard for non-church nonprofits. Proponents of the motion say that our entities should be held to the same standard as secular nonprofits and that every Southern Baptist church has the right to know how our cooperative program dollars are spent. Now, opponents of the motion say that the public disclosures to this level have the potential to damage our entity's ability to protect sensitive information that it could undermine the trustee system and that much of the information requested is already disclosed to the convention in entities and annual reports and really that it could put at risk certain religious liberty protections that have been offered to us by the federal government.
David Sons (37:33):
And so I would just ask it this way for you specifically, does your church disclose this kind of information to its members? And should all churches perhaps, this isn't really just a question about entities, it's really about churches. Should all churches on principle who are giving money to the convention or who are giving to the Cooperative Program, should they have access to that information within their local church as well? So it's really kind of a smaller question about a bigger issue. Does your church disclose this type of information to its members? And would you encourage all churches to do that as well as president of the SBC?
Jared Moore (38:15):
My church discloses this information locally. I mean, any member can have access to our finances, our budget, everybody knows how much money I make and where every dollar goes. We have business meetings where all that is given disclosed. And as far as me encouraging local churches and how they do their finances, I haven't even thought about on the local church level because the reason why is because my money, our church's money is not going to those local churches. And so if those people are fine with not knowing how their pastors spend that money, then I mean if that's what they're a local church, they can do what they want. But concerning SBC entities, just every church I've served, it's always been disclosed. I know there are bigger churches that can get away with, we don't tell what the pastors are making, they just have a staff line. And this is how much money goes towards the staff instead of disclosing the exact amount, which that just would not fly in the churches I've been a part of because you're looking at 150, 200 people and they're all, they want to know how their money is spent. And the best way to look at it is how God's money is spent.
Jared Moore (39:53):
And so how is the SBC spending? Our church gives around 5% to the cooperative program and how is the SBC spending God's money that we've entrusted them with? And I do trust the trustees. I trust the system. This isn't about trusting the trustees or trusting the system. It's about seeing how our entities are spending the money and what happened at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary with how money was spent there. And that was under the leadership of the trustees that permitted that type of lavish spending. And so if that had been disclosed where they had to tell the SBC how they were spending their money in previous decades as well, and that goes for every entity, I think that there would be better financial stewardship in the entities if every Southern Baptist and if they're worried about disclosure, there's a way where they can just, like my church has a particular number that I can enter and register to be a messenger online.
Jared Moore (41:03):
And only people who have that number are going to be able to do that. And if they want to put the financial disclosures behind that number to where every Southern Baptist church can use that number to access the financial reports, they can do that. And I understand I'm a small government guy for sure. I submit to the government, the Bible tells me to. And so I'm going to do my best to do that. And so I understand the concern over the government, but there are other SBC entities at the state level that do present nine nineties and they don't have any issues that I'm aware of with the government. So I we're asking for them not to submit anything to the government. I don't even like when folks mentioned the IRS forum nine 90, because I think that that is trying to throw a wrench because what folks are, it has nothing to do with the IRS. We're wanting a parallel financial disclosure to what
David Sons (42:11):
It looks like. Yeah, I would say I think that, I know Rhett Burns who made the motion, Rhett and I go back several years have been friends since college and I think he's used that language really as kind of like a descriptive language, right? I think you're right. And so I wouldn't say that's just opponents using that language to discredit financial. I mean Rhett himself has said like the IRS form nine 90, because I think that's the type of information that we're after. And so lemme ask you this, Jared, just as a follow up, you and I, you said 24 years you been in a Southern Baptist church and probably have pastored several. And so you and I know, and we've been in churches long enough to know sometimes that for some church members, if the pastor makes more than I do, he makes too much.
David Sons (42:57):
Right? There is some of that. And critics have said that these motions, while they may be about more, they are certainly not about less than maybe finding out how much our entity executives make. In fact, even this morning, you tweeted a long, I'll say this morning as we're recording this, it may be days ahead of when this actually comes out, but you tweeted recently about some of those institutions that have published salaries of executives, presidents, COOs, and a 2022 lifeway compensation study showed that the average total compensation of a full-time senior pastor in the SBC was just over about $90,000, several salaries this morning from university and seminary presidents. You tweeted out with the upper end, I think of what I saw being about $600,000. In your opinion, is there a number that you are comfortable with for our entity heads or executives making? Is there a number that you feel like is too much? What do you think?
Jared Moore (44:06):
It depends on the man and the position. Al Mohler should be making the top end of whatever that number is because there's only one Al Mohler.
Jared Moore (44:15):
It used to be that way with Paige Patterson, there was only one page Patterson. And by that I mean you can see it right now in the SBC, where's the Adrian Rogers? Where's it We have no leaders anymore. We have no one. I mean when you look at the pool of SBC president candidates, it's largely a bunch of no names. And by that I'm not making a statement against those guys. I'm saying there's no Adrian Rogers, there's no Criswell, there's no vines. No. I mean, and so I don't have a problem with a man being worthy of his wages, but there are going to be a lot of Southern Baptists who do have a problem with those high numbers. And I don't have an issue with them having a problem with it either.
Jared Moore (44:59):
I would love to see that there needs to be a ministry standard. And by that I mean some folks encourage, well, whatever the market says this person should be paid is what they should be paid. But you're leading a ministry. You're leading a ministry. And so it's not the same thing as what the market drives. If you want to not lead a ministry and go to where the market can make the most money, then you can do that. But we're talking about volunteers giving their money sacrificially. And so I understand a man being worthy of his wages. I don't have an issue with a man being worthy of his wages, but Southern Baptist should be able to make that determination rather than it being done behind the scenes in my opinion. And that's something else, trustees, all trustees should at least have an email that is publicly available, email or snail mail address a appeal box, something where a Southern Baptist can contact him or her if they have questions. I mean, there needs to be some sort of,
David Sons (46:20):
Doesn't that already exist? Just as an EC trustee, I get stuff in the mail all the time. I believe that already exists. And because I mean just as an EC trustee, I get stuff from all over the country all the time about folks who have something that they would like to present to the executive committee or something that they would like to see or X, Y and Z or a complaint or encouragement. I mean, I receive that as a trustee. So I think that that probably exists in some form or fashion.
Jared Moore (46:48):
It does not exist for every entity. And if you do, it is tooth and nail hard to find. It needs to be something. The executive committee just have a website where literally every person with their info is listed and it's just not the case.
David Sons (47:08):
So you would say that the metric for determining how much a entity head should make should be determined by the SBC. So this isn't something that's determined by the trustees…
Jared Moore (47:18):
That’s not what I said—
David Sons (47:20):
No, no, no. Don't let me put words in your mouth. No, not where's not what I said. So when you said a moment ago, Al Mohler should be our highest paid, Al Mohler should be our highest paid entity head because there's only one Al Mohler. How do we determine that as a metric, I think is the question that I'm asking if it's not the market, okay, if we just say, okay, we're not going to say what is the market say, this guy is worth, we have to have a different metric at Southern Baptists. What is the metric? That's the question I think I'm asking here in some of this about compensation. Does that make sense? And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Maybe I did a bad job of describing what you had just said a moment ago, but what is the metric? What would the metric be?
Jared Moore (48:11):
The metric would be the reason why I said there's only one Al Mohler, he's been there 30 years.
David Sons (48:17):
Yeah, no, yeah, for sure.
Jared Moore (48:18):
The flagship seminary, he has shown consistent leadership. He has not cut the number of enrollment in half like some of our other entity heads at other seminaries. And so I think that he should be rewarded for that. That is a good thing. And by the metric, you're going to have to look at the market, but I think you have to consider the ministry, you have to consider that it is a ministry that is based on limited funds. It is not the secular standard. There's a difference. I mean, again, I think a man's worthy of his wages. Personally, I don't have a problem with those numbers that I put on Twitter. I don't have an issue with that.
David Sons (49:04):
I think that's good. I think that's good clarity. Yeah.
Jared Moore (49:06):
There are going to be Southern Baptists that do have an issue with it, and they have a right to have an issue with it. They have a right to know how entities spend Southern Baptist money. And that's the thing, if our church is giving to this and then we don't know how it's spent and we're told to trust the trustees, well, I trust the trustees, but these entities need to trust Southern Baptist. Why can't we be trusted with this information? That's really what it boils down to. Why can't Southern Baptist be trusted with how our entities spend the money we give them? That's the question. And as far as pay and stuff, I'm not complaining about, I mean, if Mohler makes $600,000 a year, then he makes $600,000 a year. I don't make that decision. I don't have an issue with him making that much.
Jared Moore (50:02):
But I think that there are going to be Southern Baptists who do, and they have a right to do. They have a right to know that information. And yes, there are churches where people would say, well, pastor shouldn't make this much, or pastors shouldn't get this much vacation, all those things. But they have a right to do that. They're a local church member. But as it sits right now in the SBC, we are being told that Southern Baptists don't have the right to know how money is spent at our entities. That's what we're being told. I don't think that that biblically flies. I'm actually amazed that it has gotten to this point that this hasn't been done in the past. And so I'm hoping that the executive committee, you're on the executive committee, I'm hoping the executive committee will bring a motion to vote on at the Southern Baptist Convention.
David Sons (51:00):
I know that's something that the executive committee's, something that was discussed in February and I know will be discussed in June. And there certainly we'll see that from the floor. Jared, I want to move kind of towards wrapping up. And so just want to ask a couple of personal questions here. And one interesting note is that you're also, not only are you being nominated, but you're also nominating, you're nominating Michael Clary, a pastor in Cincinnati to be a 1ST VP. And I would have to get somebody to check me here. I'm not a historian. We can maybe get Luke Holmes to check us on the backside of this, but I think that's a little bit unique. So there is almost a presidential ticket, if you will. Can you maybe talk a little bit about why you're choosing to nominate Dr. Clary as 1st VP?
Jared Moore (51:53):
Michael is an urban church planner who partnered with NAMB to plant a church in Cincinnati. I think it was the Nehemiah project is what he was a part of. I believe it was 14 years ago, roughly. And he's been a faithful pastor. The whole point of that project was to start churches that start churches. And Michael has done that. And he has been faithful. He's a faithful husband, father faithful Southern Baptist loves the SBC. They've started another church. And I mean it's, he is the right man for the job. He also is very clear on biblical ethics, male female. He wrote a book as well called God's Good Design that is worth reading. And I mean, it's probably one of the best books on the subject in the past decade. And I would encourage anyone to pick that up so that you can see and hear his heart.
Jared Moore (52:56):
He's got a lot of biblical wisdom. He's in Cincinnati and they are a few miles from University of Cincinnati. So a lot of the prime liberal apologetic ideals he deals with in his church and has to answer those difficult questions over all these issues. LGBT issues, male female roles, male, female. And he's been faithful. And so that's why I'm nominating him. He's a little older than me. I think he's late forties. But man, we just need faithful godly men in these positions. And that's why I'm nominating Michael Cleary. So appreciate that. So remember, if you want more clarity, there it is. Vote for Clarity.
David Sons (53:48):
You guys have formed a little bit of a ticket. You talked about Credo Alliance kind of coming to you guys and moving this thing forward. And so there is this little bit of a sponsorship and a ticket of more and clarity, and so
Jared Moore (54:02):
We've got some more candidates we're going to announce. Okay.
David Sons (54:05):
Alright.
Jared Cornutt (54:06):
Little tease there, Jared. There are, there's five people running right now. Could be more, who knows? For president of the SBC, is this a good or bad thing? I mean, is this maybe five candidates showing? Is it telling us something about the state of the SBC? Is that good or bad? What do you think?
Jared Moore (54:25):
It's definitely telling us something about the state of the SBC that we have no Adrian Rogers anymore. That we have no Jerry Vines that we have. No, I mean, we have no leaders who, that's the guy. That's the next guy. And that's what we're seeing. And it's sad. Honestly, it's sad. I wish that we still had those types of statesmen, but we don't. And the one, I mean you could make an argument, there are some who just didn't throw their hat in the ring. That could be that guy. I just hate that. I just hate that. But I think that on the flip side, I think more candidates is better, not worse. So if the conservative resurgence has done its work, that means that Southern Baptist churches are thoroughly conservative and biblical. And so why couldn't one of those churches put forth someone who could lead the convention? Because now everybody agrees, right? And everybody submits to the confession. Everybody is a southern Baptist. So I think it's a good thing. I think we need 10 candidates or 20.
David Sons (55:37):
Yeah, but where you got two Baptists, you got three opinions. You know how that works. That's true.
Jared Moore (55:42):
Right? But the vote at the convention is what matters. How
Jared Cornutt (55:44):
Many runoffs will we have with 20 candidates?
David Sons (55:47):
Gosh,
Jared Moore (55:47):
Well just one
David Sons (55:49):
Be there.
Jared Cornutt (55:50):
Lemme ask you this. That's kind a follow up. I think you would say that the other four men running alongside you are Christian brothers who maybe you don't see eye to eye with on every issue. And who among us sees eye to eye on every issue, but in the spirit of brotherly love, Christian Love, unity. Is there anything that you could say about each of them, maybe that you admire about them or respect about them? If you know them and you may not know them well enough to be able to say anything, but with those other guys running, what would you say about that?
Jared Moore (56:19):
The other guys running? So KEYone seems to have a clear Christian testimony, loves the Lord is faithful, has served faithfully for decades. We disagree on several decisions. The new private, I don't even know what the arc thing. So we disagree on the formation of that, but I have every reason to believe he's a good godly man and a faithful pastor, Bruce Frank, I don't know as well. I admire his zeal for being willing to be put in tough spots. The abuse task force was definitely a tough spot to be in. And regardless what decision you make, you're going to have people who are angry at you. And I appreciate him being in that position though I disagree with him on several things. Clint Presley, very similar. I'm thankful for how he has served the SBC behind the scenes as a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Jared Moore (57:28):
I disagree with him on things as well. David Allen is the closest thing we have to a statesman in this election. In my opinion, I have a very high opinion of David Allen. Been faithful in ministry for decades, has served the SBC, loves the SBCA gifted preacher, gifted theologian, gifted expositor. His Hebrews commentary is remarkable. I mean, there's just a lot to love about David and I think if anyone's the clear statesman in this election that it's David Allen. And of course I want folks to vote for me. But if you're not going to vote for me, I would encourage you to vote for David Allen.
David Sons (58:12):
Jared, we really appreciate your time and your just candor and the thoughtfulness that you've put into your answers in our interview today. And certainly are praying for you and for your church as we make our way to Indianapolis in June. And so thanks for spending time with Jared now today.
Jared Moore (58:29):
David, thank you Jared. Thank you brother.
David Sons (58:32):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Baptist Review podcast. The Baptist Review is committed to helping facilitate better conversation towards a better convention. For more information about the Baptist Review, you can check out our website at thebaptistreview.com.
David Sons
David Sons serves as Pastor of Lake Murray Baptist Church in Lexington, South Carolina. He graduated from North Greenville University in 2008 with a B.A. in Communications and received his Master of Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. David came to Lake Murray in June of 2015. David is the recent past-Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, and served as chairman of the SBC Committee on Resolutions (2023). He is married to Allyson, and they have four children. David is the regular host of The Baptist Review podcast.